Is 9mm a strong enough round

[spikes40]

Guys...this did nothappen to me but worth passing along the info...makes you think

I have been a member of this board for some time and I have ready many posts about how what to carry for ccw and how many rounds etc. Many members have posted things like "if you need more then 5 rounds you made the wrong choice." etc. Well read this from a member of another board. This took place in North Miami. This may make you think twice about how you ccw and defend your family. Pics in 2nd post.



POST #1
January 13th 2008:

As my girlfriend and I slept in peace...

The sound of gun fire and glass breaking registers into my ears and i explode out of my bed. Immediately my brain re-acts to what is going on and I grab my pistol (Springfield XD-9) off the nightstand. Pitch blackness... Gun ready I run out into the hallway and witness somebody violently entering my window gun in hand. My body takes over and begins to fire towards a man running through my living room shooting. I fire as fast as possible, but he is still charging me like a bull. At this point I'm thinking "Why isnt he going down?" I retreat into the bedroom and take cover waiting for him to come in. It never happens. I peek into the hallway and there he is face down on the carpet. With the grace of god he was hit. He lay screaming "kill me" while attempting to reload his weapon. I decided to wrestle the gun away. 3 minutes later PD arrives on scene (girlfriend phoned 911) and EMS transported the BG to ryder trauma with 6 gunshot wounds.

Due to the immediate response and top notch medical team the guy survived!!!! From time of injury to surgery in <30 minutes!

Regardless... BG is in custody facing 4 felonies and I am scratch free. Bullet holes on both sides of the concrete hallway in which I was using as cover.

I had my Springfield loaded with 16 rounds of Federal 9mm "Hydra-Shok" personal defensive ammo, one in the chamber for just such a situation. The guy ran through the first five shots like they were spit balls. Only reason he finally went down is because one hit him in the left femur shattering it into dust. CSI teams says I fired 14 shots.

BG Injury report: GSW to the neck, right shoulder, stomach, left lower abdomen, groin, left femur, graze to wrist and lacerations on hands from glass. Pulmonary embolism and chronic infections while he waits the trial.


Post #2
Turns out the guy was my girlfriends ex-husband who had been stalking her and after receiving news she was staying at my apartment, he got drunk and came over for a double murder suicide. He never got to the bed room where she was and he didnt get his "death wish."

SIDENOTES: He tried to shoot the door locks off and was unsuccessful... then he went and shot through the window.
Good thing he announced himself and didnt kick in the door. He would have had the jump on me.

*First shot grazed his trigger hand and damaged the base of his glock .40 cal causing the magazine to fall out. He didnt even realize and while running towards me pulling the trigger the only round he had left was in the chamber. (thanks god)


All I have to say is be careful who you date... they most likely have baggage and by baggage i mean a psycho loser exhusband.

Post#3
There was a female neighbor sleeping right on the other side of the wall where one of the rounds hit. She said it "shook the apartment!" Luckily the dividing walls are solid concrete and did a great job in stopping any penetration. From what I heard the whole building called 911 at 02:13am and said it sounded like a war was going on at the 3rd floor. One guy even opened their door and saw the BG shooting. Crazy!

Both my girlfriend and I were taken to the PD station for statements and the apartment was worked by CSI for 12 hours. They confiscated my 9mm pistol until the trial is over. The cops were really cool and said they would have done the same exact thing. They even roped off the downstairs to get the news camera's away. Turns out it still made the news "A paramedic was shot in a domestic dispute early sunday morning." Idiots

I bought my first "Gun" (the springfield) 3 weeks before this incident as a Xmas present to myself. Turns out It was the best gift I have ever recieved


Post #4

When retreating into the bedroom I knew I was almost out of ammo and expected round 2 any second. Turns out the spare magazine was locked away and I was trembling to the fact i might only have one round left in the gun.

When asked at the interview after the incident "How many times do you think you fired" I answered I think between 4 and 8...

Boy was I off... My original thought that I was almost empty was correct! Had only 2 rounds left

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[anthony20031]

So what is his opinion then regarding round size then? From my take I would rather have more rounds and precisely why I got my SR9...17 + 1. Like he stated in that situation you probably won't be nearly as accurate and may wish to have the extra rounds. I think the difference between stopping power of going up a size or so is offset by the less rounds. Although in a home defense situation you can have extra mags lying next to the bed like I do but in a CCW carry I like the though of a full size 9mm. Actaully on a gun show the other day the guy was explaining he would rather have a concealed full suze 9 than any other carry gun. He specifically chose the SR9 ironically for his carry gun because it was the thinnest gun and still had a large capacity.

[anthony20031]

Also sidenote...that round he is holding doesn't seem to be very effective as it didn't seem to expand all that well.

[ss1]

I remember when this was posted. Reading it made me think about how unusual it is to have interior hallways made of concrete. You are usually not afforded that type of cover in your house. I do have:


steel front door that opens outward
impact resistant windows and sliders
alarm
dog


Still, I'm always thinking about how much time do I really have to react and where should I engage the threat. The issue about caliber is a non-issue for me. :ar:

[lino]

for home, I would say scattergun FTW...

[Dan]

I have said it before and I will say it again. I have my AK with 2x40rd mags loaded and in the rifle. All I have to do is tug the charge handle and its ready to go. That is my first line of defense. If for some strange reason I cant get to it quick enough or I want to be stealthy and sneak up on the intruder, I have my .45 loaded and ready with an extra mag loaded and ready.

On a separate note I have heard several stories like this one where the guy hit doesnt drop. The common thread in the stories is they all used Federal Hydrashock ammo. I heard one LEO telling a story about a perp they shot some 14+ times with Federal Hydrashock and the guy didnt go down. I am not convinced that the Hydrashock is the way to go.

I suppose a shotgun may have worked better in that situation, more stopping power and you dont need to be as accurate. I am thinking about picking up a Saiga 12 with 20rd drum.

[ss1]

Also sidenote...that round he is holding doesn't seem to be very effective as it didn't seem to expand all that well.

most hollowpoints don't expand well at all in non-flesh/liquid medium.

[anthony20031]

I have my AR but I am extremely nervous about using it for home defense. I really would be devastated if I took out someone next door or something with a round. Granted I don't have frag rounds though but even then I don't know if that would guarantee not going through concrete. Anyone know of the performance of those rounds?

Right now I am using Winchester SXZ JHP. I need to get more but that wont happen til I get some funds

[spikes40]

i have the ballistic tip hornady TAP in my ar b ut that is kept in the safe.. i just keep my sig 228 w/ spare mag bedside

[JaxChris]

Only 2 rounds I would consider real one-shot man-stoppers. That is the .357 Magnum and the .45ACP. Anything else is too ineffective or too large for civilians to have.

I'd rather have 10 rounds that can stop a person than 20 rounds that will just piss the bad guy off.

Just my opinion. Too many people prefer quantity over quality.

[Satan_3pc]

My philosophy as of late is... Train with Jax at least once a week at the range and carry .45!!! You won't need the extra rounds!

[Adam]

for home, I would say scattergun FTW...

Yep. Some 12ga LE 00Buck should do the trick, no matter what size the target is. If that doesn't work, I've got some slugs on the back-up rig.


I have my AR but I am extremely nervous about using it for home defense. I really would be devastated if I took out someone next door or something with a round.

Look into getting a 9mm AR house gun setup (shorty carbine length, maybe SBR, with a clear red dot sight). Same controls as a regular AR, and with better accuracy and distance than a handgun. Plus, you get 30rd stick mags! :fu:

I wouldn't even bother with frangible ammo. I'm not a fan, and I'd prefer to KNOW my shots will go through heavy clothing and into the bad guy.


Only 2 rounds I would consider real one-shot man-stoppers. That is the .357 Magnum and the .45ACP. Anything else is too ineffective or too large for civilians to have.

Why the .357? It's essentially a 9mm (.36 caliber) shoved into a longer case with more powder.

While I prefer .45 to anything else (I just shoot it best), I don't think it's a one-shot show stopper. To be honest, the only round I'd trust to immediately stop an assailant would be a .50BMG, but that's obviously not feasible in a home defense situation.

[RCSRT8]

To be honest, the only round I'd trust to immediately stop an assailant would be a .50BMG, but that's obviously not feasible in a home defense situation.

But that would be a funny report to read, and I'm sure the cops would be laughing, talking about that for years.

[Satan_3pc]

I wouldn't even bother with frangible ammo. I'm not a fan, and I'd prefer to KNOW my shots will go through heavy clothing and into the bad guy.And right into your neighbor's child's cradle. :)


I'll agree with Lino though. 12 gauge shotgun FTW.

http://www.nazarian.no/images/wep/370_Super-Shorty20.jpg

[JaxChris]

My philosophy as of late is... Train with Jax at least once a week at the range and carry .45!!! You won't need the extra rounds!

Matt, I certainly appreciate the compliment... BUT, please don't automatically take everything I say as gospel. There are plenty of things where I don't have a full understanding where some of my conclusions can be quite wrong.

Always remember to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. =)

I'm more than happy to hit the range and help each other out though. =)

[Adam]

And right into your neighbor's child's cradle. :)

No neighbors to worry about. :D

And for the record, a 12ga with 00buck will still penetrate (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm) interior walls like any other metallic round.

[Cris]

I keep one round in my LCP .380. That's all I am going to need.

[Secpro]

I've been in one to many situations where that damn 9mm round doesn't do shit to stop the BG. I've posted some things on another thread! While working unfortunately the state of Fl sais I must have a 9mm when off the glock I have my G30SF. The way I factor in how I carry is really quite simple. When local I my G30 with an extra 10rd mag plus one chambered so thats 21rds. When traveling outside of that i carry my 9mm for quantity. Soon that will change when I get my XDM 40. Then it's going down!
Bottom line is 9mm doesn't work. You get a BG on some form of drug or alcohol and you'll be combat loading on his ass cause the son of a bitch wont go down.

[anthony20031]

yh still not so sure about going up in size. I may just get a 1911 just becuase I love the gun and not necessarily just because of size...just love that gun. I think in the end it really comes to shot placement. Look at the story and the places he hit. Hit the stomach several times, shoulder, neck and groin. Maybe if he had a .45 that neck shot would have killed him or maybe one of those stomach shot may have hit the spine bringing him down but it was just as likely that they would have just done the same thing as the 9. He had a less than 50% accuracy rating. I am ok with a pistol, but I understand in that situation I may only be as accurate as the guy mentioned. I would rather have more rounds to be accurate in my situation. Some of you here have a lot more experience than I do and may feel a lot more comfortable and are probably a hell of a lot more accurate than me lol. Anyway I plan on getting a 1911 and then I can put both my SR9 and my 1911 on the bedstand and get the best of both worlds lol. If someone breaks in I'll go double fisting with a 9 and a 45 lol

[spikes40]

double fisting sounds painful!

[Cris]

double fisting sounds painful!

You sir, are a freak. LOL!!!

[anthony20031]

oh god lol...I had a feeling after I typed that someone would make a comment lol

[Satan_3pc]

Matt, I certainly appreciate the compliment... BUT, please don't automatically take everything I say as gospel. There are plenty of things where I don't have a full understanding where some of my conclusions can be quite wrong.

Always remember to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. =)

I'm more than happy to hit the range and help each other out though. =)Hey, I just said I train at the range with you! I just happen to agree now. I didn't buy my XDm for carry, and I knew my girlfriend might shoot it so I wanted something light and cost effective at the range. I now want a .45 for my CCW as you know. If I took everything you said as gospel I wouldn't be getting a Glock 30 :)

Jax - Antiglock

[Dan]

Perhaps the best solution for home defense is to have a few different weapons at your disposal. I dont have any kids so I suppose I could set up strategic locations around the house armed with weapons and cover. I have already set up a panic room of sorts. I have it loaded with ammo and a few rifles. As I get more stuff I will further develop this idea.

[Secpro]

Perhaps the best solution for home defense is to have a few different weapons at your disposal. I dont have any kids so I suppose I could set up strategic locations around the house armed with weapons and cover. I have already set up a panic room of sorts. I have it loaded with ammo and a few rifles. As I get more stuff I will further develop this idea.


Panic room good!:)
There are so many options open to home defense. The best I'd go about it is by looking at the percieve threat. There's a 50/50 chance the BG may be on some form of drug(9mm wont stop him) depending on your surroundings the Bg may be wearing some form of Kevlar vest II or IIIA. Pistol grip doesn't sound bad! the universal sound of that bad boy being pumped may even save you from firing a round. Buck shots will do the trick or alternate rounds between buck and slugs. First being buck shot.

[lino]

http://www.nazarian.no/images/wep/370_Super-Shorty20.jpg


Oooh I likey that one

[Secpro]

And right into your neighbor's child's cradle. :)


I'll agree with Lino though. 12 gauge shotgun FTW.

http://www.nazarian.no/images/wep/370_Super-Shorty20.jpg

Sexy little beast!

[spikes40]

That is the Serbu Super Shorty

[lino]

it must kick like a mule...

[JaxChris]

I keep one round in my LCP .380. That's all I am going to need.

More like that's all the .380 ammo you find?!?! lol

[JaxChris]

That Serbu Super Shorty runs 3" shells. Good luck controlling that on such a short barrel. Plus you get 3 shots (1 in chamber and 2 in the tube).

Matt, I'm not really anti-Glock. I agree the Glock30/36 is a good weapon. But like Cris I prefer the XD trigger, plus I like the extra security of the grip safety. The XD naturally aims better in the hand as well out of the box.

[Secpro]

[QUOTE=Matt, I'm not really anti-Glock. I agree the Glock30/36 is a good weapon. But like Cris I prefer the XD trigger, plus I like the extra security of the grip safety. The XD naturally aims better in the hand as well out of the box.[/QUOTE]

:+1:

[Satan_3pc]

it must kick like a mule...Not sure how it shoots, but it looks like a nice little home defense gun to go prowling around corners with in the darkness.


Jax :fu:
I am still learning this whole forum thing so fuck you very much. Dude, you press a button and type after the text... that it inserts for you!

[ADC817]

Bottom line is 9mm doesn't work. You get a BG on some form of drug or alcohol and you'll be combat loading on his ass cause the son of a bitch wont go down.

What about a shot to the kneecap...That wont put someone down?(speaking if you actually have the time and focus lol)


double fisting sounds painful!

Fisting? :bolt:

[Satan_3pc]

So you can either disable there knee with a 9mm, or blow it off with a .45. Either works I suppose.

[JaxChris]

Seriously, don't tell me you're going to waste ammo taking quick-draw shots at a bad guys knees?!?!

Torso, unload until they fall and are no longer a threat to anyone. Other than maybe .410 in a Taurus Judge (have fun shooting that waste-of-steel gimmick gun) there is no pistol round more effective for putting down bad guys than the 45auto, the 9mm just can't compare.

[ADC817]

lol...It was just a question

Me preferably would rather blow there head off with a 12 guage...u know that is really messed up thats considered excessive force.(thas really not fair)

[Satan_3pc]

Yeah, don't you love all these stupid rules in favor of the bad guy? It's like fighting Vietnam. Did you know there was a point in the war where they were told not to engage certain launch sites for weapons and stuff until they could verify it was operational? Who gives a shit, if you're enemy is even building something blow it up!

[Secpro]

[QUOTE=ADC817;11532]What about a shot to the kneecap...That wont put someone down?(speaking if you actually have the time and focus lol)



Alright, so you shoot said BG in the knees right and he goes down. Of course he's still alive when PD shows up gets med attention and goes to prison after the hospital and then files a case to sue your ass for being disabled or some other shit claiming that you wrongfully shot him. What happens then? There's a 50/50 chance that that SOB may actually win the damn case and end up taking you for your money. Why just not shoot to stop the threat aiming for vital organs/center mass............................ It's just not worth it in the end.