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View Full Version : Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for openly carrying guns



spikes40
09-10-2009, 02:36 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m9d9-Federal-judge-rules-police-cannot-detain-people-for-openly-carrying-guns


On September 8, 2009, United States District Judge Bruce D. Black of the United States District Court for New Mexico entered summary judgment in a civil case for damages against Alamogordo, NM police officers. The Judge's straight shootin' message to police: Leave open carriers alone unless you have "reason to believe that a crime [is] afoot."

The facts of the case are pretty simple. Matthew St. John entered an Alamogordo movie theater as a paying customer and sat down to enjoy the movie. He was openly carrying a holstered handgun, conduct which is legal in 42 states, and requires no license in New Mexico and twenty-five other states.

In response to a call from theater manager Robert Zigmond, the police entered the movie theater, physically seized Mr. St. John from his seat, took him outside, disarmed him, searched him, obtained personally identifiable information from his wallet, and only allowed him to re-enter the theater after St. John agreed to secure his gun in his vehicle. Mr. St. John was never suspected of any crime nor issued a summons for violating any law.

Importantly, no theater employee ever ordered Mr. St. John to leave. The police apparently simply decided to act as agents of the movie theater to enforce a private rule of conduct and not to enforce any rule of law.

On these facts, Judge Black concluded as a matter of law that the police violated Matthew St. John's constitutional rights under the Fourth Amendment because they seized and disarmed him even though there was not "any reason to believe that a crime was afoot." Judge Black's opinion is consistent with numerous high state and federal appellate courts, e.g., the United States Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L. (2000) (detaining man on mere report that he has a gun violates the Fourth Amendment) and the Washington Appeals Court in State v. Casad (2004) (detaining man observed by police as openly carrying rifles on a public street violates the Fourth Amendment).

Mr. St. John's attorney, Miguel Garcia, of Alamogordo, NM was pleased with the ruling and look forward to the next phase of the litigation which is a jury trial to establish the amount of damages, and possibly punitive damages. Garcia said that

"[i]t was great to see the Court carefully consider the issues presented by both sides and conclude that the U.S. Constitution prohibits the government from detaining and searching individuals solely for exercising their rights to possess a firearm as guaranteed by our state and federal constitutions."

Notably, Judge Black denied the police officers' requested "qualified immunity," a judicially created doctrine allowing government officials acting in good faith to avoid liability for violating the law where the law was not "clearly established." In this case, Judge Black concluded that

"[r]elying on well-defined Supreme Court precedent, the Tenth Circuit and its sister courts have consistently held that officers may not seize or search an individual without a specific, legitimate reason. . . . The applicable law was equally clear in this case. Nothing in New Mexico law prohibited Mr. St. John from openly carrying a firearm in the Theater. Accordingly, Mr. St. John's motion for summary judgment is granted with regard to his Fourth Amendment and New Mexico constitutional claims. Defendants' motion for summary judgment is denied with regard to the same and with regard to qualified immunity."

Judge Black's opinion and order is welcome news for the growing number of open carriers across the United States. Though police harassment of open carriers is rare, it's not yet as rare as it should be - over the last several years open carriers detained without cause by police have sued and obtained cash settlements in Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Virginia (see additional settlement here), and Georgia. More cases are still pending in Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.

Judge Black's opinion and order can be read here.

NOTE: Mathew St. John's attorney, Miguel Garcia, is an associate at John R. Hakanson PC, 307 11th St., Alamogordo, NM 88310 and can be reached at Miguelo.Garcia AT gmail.com.

spikes40
09-10-2009, 02:36 PM
Its nice to see the judgements on our side.... Finally

Cris
09-10-2009, 02:44 PM
:tiphat:

ss1
09-10-2009, 03:21 PM
Now we just need to convince FL legislators that open carry makes sense. I remember the short window of time there was a "loophole" that allowed it and all the city slicker liberal chicken littles were screaming to have it immediately closed out of fear that it will cause wild west shootouts. Funny, that's what they said about CCW and our castle/stand your ground doctrine and it didn't happen.

lino
09-10-2009, 03:26 PM
Now we just need to convince FL legislators that open carry makes sense. I remember the short window of time there was a "loophole" that allowed it


I remeber going to the movies and seeing a no guns allowed poster on the door.. also remember seeing people at restaurants with cowboy style holsters.. it was pretty cool..

how could we get open carry legalized here?

Satan_3pc
09-10-2009, 05:09 PM
Now we just need to convince FL legislators that open carry makes sense.Hell yeah. I want to be an old west gun slinger no one fucks with.

Dan
09-10-2009, 09:39 PM
I honestly think open carry would be more of a crime deterrent then concealed carry. As of right now if a criminal sees me, they have no idea if I am armed or not. So if they attack they are dead. Open carry would deter criminals and save their lives.

anthony20031
09-10-2009, 11:40 PM
that or they will wait til they don't see people carrying in the open. At least with concealed carry they should, should lol be deterred. Could also consider that a criminal may focus on you if they see you open carry and are intent on committing the crime. Just food for thought

JaxChris
09-11-2009, 01:31 AM
If you are legally allowed to own firearms, you should be allowed to open carry. Concealed carry should still require an additional license/permit. Also, those with concealed permits should be allowed to keep their weapon on them at all times and it should be illegal for workplaces to have rules that violate the constitutional rights of their workers.

Currently the "Guns At Work" law in Florida is half-assed, as it requires a concealed permit just to be allowed to have your weapon in your vehicle at work, but still allows employers to ban you from keeping your weapon concealed on your person.

People are too scared of things they don't understand, instead of taking the time to learn them and respect them. It's absolute laziness to not want to know and understand all your rights as a citizen and to continually thirst for information.

Everyone should be Johnny5!

Cris
09-11-2009, 07:45 AM
You don't need a conceal permit to keep a firearm in your vehicle at work.

Secpro
09-11-2009, 08:02 AM
You don't need a conceal permit to keep a firearm in your vehicle at work.

You never really did! I guess employers found out about some employees having firearms in there vehicles and decided to infringe on there right and that's how the whole law came about.

Secpro
09-11-2009, 08:03 AM
:tiphat:
Great post! It's always good when a judge rules in favor of our right to keep and bare arms.

Cris
09-11-2009, 08:55 AM
You never really did! I guess employers found out about some employees having firearms in there vehicles and decided to infringe on there right and that's how the whole law came about.


Employers used to have a say in the matter, until July of 2008.

lino
09-11-2009, 09:32 AM
Employers used to have a say in the matter, until July of 2008.

Florida is still an employment at will state.. they can fire you if they want.. for whatever they want as long as it is not considered discrimination..

I just dont tell them were the WOMD are .... :bolt:

Secpro
09-11-2009, 10:47 AM
Employers used to have a say in the matter, until July of 2008.

:+1: but Lino is right. I would recommend keeping it to yourself.

Cris
09-11-2009, 10:54 AM
With that law, the employer doesn't have the right to ask in the first place.

Secpro
09-11-2009, 12:27 PM
With that law, the employer doesn't have the right to ask in the first place.

True! I know some people who carry to work and remove it before they enter. Some jobs are fuck nutts and can remove you for crap like that. Even though its the law.