M4 Issues

[anthony20031]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33267598/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

[ss1]

I read the article over the weekend and thought must be the gas tube melting. The not so funny thing is that I was talking to a swat officer at the shop and he was telling me that many on the team are experiencing a ton of failures with the HK 416 and many are going back to the M4.

[anthony20031]

I was wondering how many rounds are going through these M4s as a total amount, not just firing constantly in one sitting /attack before failure. Basically how many rounds before they are swapping in new parts like barrel, gas tube etc.

[lino]

I read the article over the weekend and thought must be the gas tube melting. The not so funny thing is that I was talking to a swat officer at the shop and he was telling me that many on the team are experiencing a ton of failures with the HK 416 and many are going back to the M4.


you would think that the piston system would run cooler... better for desert conditions.

I saw that HK 416 on a weapons show.. they were raving about it.. said they could dip it in water, roll it in sand and still be able to fire it accurately.

[Chris]

Unfortunate but there are some strange quotes in the article.

The one that bothered me most was the one stating 12 magazines fired in 30 minutes.
Ive fired that many rounds in a semi-auto non mil-spec rifle and had no overheating problems much less the barrel glowing white hot, mildly red at most but also didnt lead to a failure.


This piece to me read more like anti-war propaganda vs. an educational piece.
As im sure everyone knows the military is actively seeking M4 replacements.
If someone can build a better mousetrap

[anthony20031]

Chris I agree. Seemed like propaganda and they were more talking about the Wanat situation last year I believe and were trying to tie it into that incident last week that resulted in 8 deaths. The last week event just seemed like a lack of troops at that outpost. Saying last weeks incident was eerily similiar to last year's even despite the fact their isn't much evidence yet to point to malfunctions as the main cause. Even in the Wanat incident a lot of the weapons went down as a result of being hit in the receiver with a round from the insurgents and not malfunctions. There is a good write up of the incident and I will see if I can find it. Always digging for a story though lol

[rob_s]

there is an interesting discussion on this over on Lightfighter. I've stayed out of it because I'm not qualified to talk about firearms use in combat, but the point many of them made was that if you're shooting 12 magazines in 30 minutes then you're not aiming, and therefore you're wasting the ammo and causing your own problems.

Those that attempt to use this to justify the piston-driven M4 conversions cannot reliably state that any other firearm would survive the kind of abuse that many of these guns endured.

[anthony20031]

Very true. In the Wanat incident if you read the actual investigation report only, from my interpretation, only one M4 actually went down due to malfunctions while 2-3 went down from getting hit from an enemy round right into the receiver. The M239 did go down but from the investigation it seemed that it put down a lot more than 400-500 rounds that was initially claimed. Seemed that malfunctions in the case were way overexaggerated and the bigger cause was that our soldiers were just way outnumbered.

[JaxChris]

if you're shooting 12 magazines in 30 minutes then you're not aiming, and therefore you're wasting the ammo and causing your own problems.

I agree with this statement. In fact, I still struggle to understand why the M4 hasn't been updated to burst fire instead of full auto. This would prevent full auto panic fire overheating the weapon too quickly in a difficult combat situation (especially when outnumbered) where you don't always take the time to aim.

If the soldiers were only given semi & burst they would flip to burst, take a breath, and put 3 rounds toward each enemy they see. Instead they flip to auto and burn through half a mag spraying in a guys general direction until he's down without any regard to aim because they know "as long as I hold down the trigger one of them will eventually hit him".

[anthony20031]

Wonder what the average round count to one kill is for the average soldier. Snipers I heard is 1 kill per 1.3 shots.

[Dan]

I agree with this statement. In fact, I still struggle to understand why the M4 hasn't been updated to burst fire instead of full auto. This would prevent full auto panic fire overheating the weapon too quickly in a difficult combat situation (especially when outnumbered) where you don't always take the time to aim.

If the soldiers were only given semi & burst they would flip to burst, take a breath, and put 3 rounds toward each enemy they see. Instead they flip to auto and burn through half a mag spraying in a guys general direction until he's down without any regard to aim because they know "as long as I hold down the trigger one of them will eventually hit him".


Good Ol' Spray and Pray mentality. We will hit something eventually.

[JaxChris]

Wonder what the average round count to one kill is for the average soldier. Snipers I heard is 1 kill per 1.3 shots.

Anywhere from 10 to 100 rounds per kill I would imagine. And I don't think intentional cover fire should count (they have M249's and Beta mags for that too).

Any very experienced soldier or a retrained tactical civilian would likely use semi and work their trigger finger quickly to achieve their kill. This saves ammo, lowers your shots/kill average, and keeps your weapon running cooler.