View Full Version : .308 dilemma
Slowbra01
01-28-2009, 01:58 AM
Ok guys, i want something in .308 but am having difficulty deciding which route to go and would appreciate your help.
I love this particular round because it is perhaps one of the most versatile rounds created. It has been and can be used in nearly every application. So i have settled on the caliber. Now my dilemma is which platform to choose?!
I would like this to be a semi-auto platform and here are the choices i have so far.
-m1a
-HK91 (and the different variations)
-FAL (DSA, or PTR)
-CETME (which i am utterly confused with and the more i read, the more i confuse myself.
As for the SA, there are two models that i am looking at:
M21 tactical and the supermatch. I do not know much detailed information other than what is on their site. Is the M21 basically a supermatch with a modified stock? As the description states "The M21 incorporates all the finest features embodied in our M1a Super Match rifle." Yet the specs indicate only national match.
As far as modification goes. I will be adding optics and bipod at a minimum if i decide on this platform. As far as the optics go, will mounting it in any way damage the stock's original state? What i mean is, will there be holes drilled into the stock or receiver or will these holes be drilled from factory. As much as possible, i dont want to cut into ANY of these firearms. The same goes for the bipod, will putting on a bipod require any drilling or will these "attachment points" come from the factory.
You're probably asking, the standard will do you good enough. Well, yes and no. I like making my purchases a one shot deal. I want an m1a and i will get the best amongst the selection that i like.
HK91 (and variations)
I love the fact that this thing looks like an mp5 on steroids. As far as having a knowledge base about this platform... well... i have very little to none. I did like Phil's vector clone, but like he brought up, if something breaks, vector no longer produces replacement parts. So for this platform, i am willing to suck it up and get the HK. I have a few questions:
-HK91 and G3...are they the same? (besides full auto)
-I see that G3 mags are fairly cheap at $10/each. Do all HK91 and its clones accept G3 mags?
-I see some HK91's with a fixed stock, and ive heard how uncomfortable the collapsible stocks are but dammit i want that collapsible stock! So, if i get a used HK91, will i be able to exchange stocks and will doing so be a hell of an undertaking?
FAL (DSA & PTR)
Seems like if i want a FAL, these are the two to go with. They seem to only differ in their configurations. These confuse the shit out of me with the CETME's so i may just leave these alone.
-Do FAL's accept G3 mags?
At the moment, i am leaning towards SA M1a since i believe (and i can always be proven wrong) it has the advantage of accuracy over the others. It has a strong aftermarket and accessory following and perhaps most important to me, its pretty straight forward with no variations!
Please feel free to comment and give suggestions. I am open to new ideas and i do not have a time limit as to when i will bite the bullet.
I agree with you on the .308 round. If I were to add another .308 to the mix, I'd probably weigh heavily on an AR based .308 tho. They are about as easy to work on as standard AR's and aftermarket options for customization is growing.
The M1a is one of those rifles that I'm on the fence on. The trigger mechanism is ingeniously simple and upgradable to the national match version. Try to find a rifle with a NM trigger group already. There's more and more stock options and pretty serviceable optic mounts. I know they are sweet shooters, but I don't care for the weight and limited barrel options.
I'm biased here. Years and years ago at a gunshow, I held a Springfield SAR-8. It's based off the the HK91 and I fell in love with it. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford it at the time and put that memory in the "must have some day" section. Post ban "HK91's" are mostly PTR's (JLD Ent.). US Code 925(d)(3) lists various firearms that are banned from importation which includes the HK MP's and variants. In order to get around this, they must use no more than 10 imported "countable" parts so as to be in compliance with 922R. Vector was actually taking PTR flats (receivers) and assembling them with their own parts and demilitarized G3 and HK91 parts. Generally, almost any HK91 part is interchangeable. In my case, my Vector was an SBR, so in order to shorten the gas rod and mainspring, Vector came up with a proprietary mainspring that telescopes and is permanently attached to the stock. If it breaks or bends, I'm SOL. But if you get any full size HK91 clone including Vectors, you shouldn't have a problem. One of the things they do to the PTR91 is they convert the receiver to allow attachment of only a semi-auto trigger housing. They also many times modify the bolt by milling a portion away that would engage the full auto sear mechanism. Vector did not modify the bolt which was a plus but if you don't plan of ever going select fire, then don't sweat it. Just a side note. When adding a collapsable stock, you may inadvertantly make your firearm out of compliance with 922R. Most of them are directly from HK or authorized HK parts makers. The owners manual should have a list of all 922R compliant parts, so just keep track of them.
The CETME is much more similar to the G3, as the action is of identical design and was a predecessor to the G3. Side by side they look very similar, but almost no parts are interchangable without substantial modification if at all. G3 mags can be easily modified to fit if they don't fit at first shot.
FAL's are nice but I don't have much personal experience with them. You can't go wrong with either a DSA or PTR from what I hear. FAL's don't use G3 mags.
Chris
02-03-2009, 07:39 PM
Socom 2
Slowbra01
02-12-2009, 11:33 AM
Ok, is there a way i can just get the receive/action/barrel/trigger...basically everything i need for an M1a EXCEPT the stock?
Slowbra01
02-23-2009, 09:36 PM
Ok, maybe a picture may help in what i want to achieve. Basically a copy of THIS!
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f187/jmisenas/1213629930044on0.jpg
Where can i get that stock?! Come on guys, i need input! This is my new project and i need it to get going. Any resources would be great!
That stock is instantly recognizable. Should I make you suffer?
Nope. Accuracy International stock for the M14
Slowbra01
02-24-2009, 12:50 AM
Thank you for the lead, but it isn't AI. However, it did come up in the search in a forum. Thank god for the internet! here's the link! http://www.jallenenterprises.com/jae100gen2.htm
Now i need to find a good source for receiver and barrels!
THANK YOU!
Cool. I guess it's not AI. It has that tell tale magwell cut. Anyway, cool you found it.
Slowbra01
02-25-2009, 10:54 PM
Ok, i looked into it a little deeper and i have decided to go with LRB for the receiver and perhaps their barrel as well.
Things i still need would be the bolt and trigger. Anyone on here know where i can browse bolt options and triggers for m14's. Has anyone ever built an m14? From what i understand, this isn't as easy as an AR where you just slap on parts. This requires a lot of fitting. Experience and guidance here would be awesome!
Funny, a guy brought in his M14 to have the optic plate and scope mounted on it today. He had the Jallen stock on it. I must say, although it is a nice stock, it takes a better picture than seeing it in the "flesh".
Secpro
02-27-2009, 07:38 AM
I want a .308, but unsure of the platform. I don't have any sniper like weapons! I've looked into the Rem 700 police issue and that doesn't seem like a bas buy at all.
Remington 700 tactical's are awesome guns. Right out of the box they are very nice and still affordable. Both Phil and Chris have one.
Secpro
02-27-2009, 09:40 AM
Remington 700 tactical's are awesome guns. Right out of the box they are very nice and still affordable. Both Phil and Chris have one.
Sweet! I've been thinking about getting one of the basic ones and doing mods as I go along
I've been stocking up the shop with tools specific to the Remington 700. We can do installation of match barrels and trigger upgrades, however, I've been extremely happy with tweeking the stock triggers and the factory barrel on mine is definitely capable of sub MOA.
Secpro
02-27-2009, 01:37 PM
I've been stocking up the shop with tools specific to the Remington 700. We can do installation of match barrels and trigger upgrades, however, I've been extremely happy with tweeking the stock triggers and the factory barrel on mine is definitely capable of sub MOA.
Since you seem to be the expert. I found one online priced cheap!
Remington - 700 SPS Tactical, .308
Price: $597.00
Is that a good deal?
Secpro
02-27-2009, 01:39 PM
Built to carry on the tradition of the Model 700 ADL™ Synthetic, the Model 700 SPS is leading the way for the next generation of hard-hitting, fully featured, affordable priced rifles. The Model 700 SPS Tactical features a black synthetic Hogue Overmold stock, dual point pillar bedding and an all black oxide blasted finish with 20" heavy-contour tactical-style barrel.
All black synthetic Hogue® Overmold (soft touch) stocks—wider fore-end
Dual Point Pillar bedding in the stock
All black oxide blasted finish with 20" heavy-contour tactical-style barrel
Offered in two chamberings: 223 Rem and 308 Win
Laser engraved “Tactical” on barrel after caliber designation
X-Mark Pro™ Trigger
Slowbra01
02-27-2009, 04:38 PM
Funny, a guy brought in his M14 to have the optic plate and scope mounted on it today. He had the Jallen stock on it. I must say, although it is a nice stock, it takes a better picture than seeing it in the "flesh".
AND YOU DIDNT TAKE A PIC?!?!?! will it be in the shop long so i can take a look at it in person? I still like it though. It's like a butterface gir!
AND YOU DIDNT TAKE A PIC?!?!?! will it be in the shop long so i can take a look at it in person? I still like it though. It's like a butterface gir!
I just installed the tactical latch earlier today. All I need to do is the optics mount and Larue base and rings and scope. It will be done tonight, but unless he calls or Rich calls him, it might be there for a little time. I can bring my camera or maybe Cris can take a pic with his camera phone.
Since you seem to be the expert. I found one online priced cheap!
Remington - 700 SPS Tactical, .308
Price: $597.00
Is that a good deal?
That's the one Chris and I both have. Great value over the PSS which is $200+ more. It does have a shorter barrel, but you don't lose significant velocity or accuracy with it. The Hogue stock is ok, as the Bell & Carlson that the PSS comes with is definitely more robust. Still, if you eventually want to upgrade the stock to a McMillan A5 or other high end stock, you don't need to spend the extra few bux for a stock you won't use for long. The barrel is extremely servicable and most serious shooters will change out their barrels anyway. That is a good price and right around what it would sell for at Guntech.
Cris took some pics tonight of the rifle. Can't guarantee it will be around long since it is done.
Yeah, I took some pics. I am working on Nicky's parents computer so I don't think I will be posting them just yet.
Slowbra01
03-16-2009, 03:37 PM
Ok, so i decided to go with the rem 700 build since it was readily available and i dont feel like waiting over a year to complete a gun. The choice is now down to the glass....and holy shit is there a big selection.
Nightforce seems awesome.....but a lot of $$$$$.
Nikon and Leupold seem to be the best bang for the buck.
Now i need to decide what strength of magnificaion do i go with?! the wider the range the better i suppose. Any suggestions.
At this point, the longest range within distance is markham which is 100yds. But i would like i scope that i can be VERY consistent with at 100yds but reach out further when needed perhaps up to 600yds.
Chris
03-16-2009, 09:05 PM
Ziess!
Slowbra01
03-17-2009, 06:31 AM
I dont know which models you're looking at, but i took a peek at the their site...those are expensive as well lol. $1k range.
For targets 100-600yrds, how much magnification do i need. I doubt ill need something all the way to 25x.
Chris
03-17-2009, 08:59 PM
its really subjective, ive seen shooters who run out to 600 with a 10x
I personally like high mag.
MSRP is also usually quite a bit higher than real world pricing.
Slowbra01
04-03-2009, 03:20 PM
I've decided on this one: http://www.zeiss.com/c1256bcf0020be5f/Contents-Frame/c6b062a1c5089a5585257546006e354d
Which one did you go with Chris?
Slowbra01
04-23-2009, 07:32 AM
Any advice on rings and bases? So far i'm leaning toward the redfield/leupold style 2 piece base with windage adjustment.
Should i stick with leupold brand or are there better alternatives out there as far as rings and bases go?
Badger Ordinance rings and bases are the way to go. Pricey tho.
Slowbra01
04-23-2009, 11:20 AM
ok, looking through the options they have. they mainly have 1 piece rails which is a +1 for durability, and stability...but does not have the windage adjustment that i was leaning towards.
I am set on going with the Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x50 MC part #52 14 85 9943.
Badger ord. has 30mm and 34mm rings. The scope has a center diameter of 1inch and objective tube diameter of 56mm.
1 - which size rings do i go with? 1in = 2.54cm = 25.4mm.
2 - which height do i go with that will keep the scope from touching the barrel on the objective end? any ideas?
And as far as sources go, where can i find the best price on badger ord stuff?
The cheapest place i found the scope was at theopticzone.com. Any other sources you guys might have in mind would be a great help!
Slowbra01
04-23-2009, 11:37 AM
You guys think guntech will have the base and rings in stock?
I'm trying to pinch pennies here (but not skimp on quality) since all the crap I've bought recently. which i feel bad for because it's all been stuff I've ordered a while back and have recently just become available and I'm processing it through guntech but not directly from them ...but that's because they didn't have a line to get what i was looking for. (mosin, amd65, and sig225/p6).
I feel bad picking up 3 guns today and i still haven't completed the rem700 i put aside for myself. Took me a while to decide on components plus all the crap that my family's gone through recently (dad who referred to me at guntech as "asian joe" lol... with kidney and pancreatic cancer).
Sorry for the lil tangent/rant there lol... but basically i am trying to finish this project and saving $$ where i can. As much as possible i would like to get everything in-house at guntech unless the price difference from an outside source is markedly significant...
Guntech won't have the Bad Ord in stock as they are specialty items that are usually ordered. They normally will carry both Leupold and Millet rings and Weaver and Pro... (sumthing) bases. I have bought both rings and bases through Guntech and through Midway. I've bought optics and rings at OpticsPlanet, CSGunworks, and SWFA. All offer good pricing with some specials from time to time.
ETA: curious why you feel windage adjustment is important. Personally, I avoid them. (too many potential moving parts to throw off accuracy after transporting the firearm).
Slowbra01
04-23-2009, 12:16 PM
I am concerned about the possibility of out-of alignment taps on the receiver. But in all honestly, before i even read about this feature, i was set on a 1piece base.
Slowbra01
05-13-2009, 10:26 AM
I'm gonna take home the Rem700 next time i come by Guntech and the rings and bases if it's there. I figure i'll just keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on that scope. I want that Rem in my hands rather than collecting dust (well the box anyways) at guntech.
cornel616
05-13-2009, 10:54 AM
Hey guys, i called yesterday at Guntech and they dont have the Remington 700 SPS Tactical in.308 in stock, and I wanted to buy one....If anybody passes by there and they have some in stock, when they are going to have it, can you let me know so I can go and get one! Thanks a lot!
RCSRT8
05-13-2009, 04:45 PM
It would be easier just to put in an order for one, so you're guaranteed to get it.
RCSRT8
05-13-2009, 04:45 PM
I'm gonna take home the Rem700 next time i come by Guntech and the rings and bases if it's there. I figure i'll just keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on that scope. I want that Rem in my hands rather than collecting dust (well the box anyways) at guntech.
Doesn't most of your stuff collect dust?
Slowbra01
05-13-2009, 08:38 PM
asshole!
Yeah they do, at least they get taken out and cleaned!
Hey guys, i called yesterday at Guntech and they dont have the Remington 700 SPS Tactical in.308 in stock, and I wanted to buy one....If anybody passes by there and they have some in stock, when they are going to have it, can you let me know so I can go and get one! Thanks a lot!
Stop by Guntech and put your name and number on a request form.
cornel616
05-14-2009, 12:58 AM
will do! i have to be in person over there???can i write a email??
Go in person, they can barely keep up with the e-mail. You can send one though and you will get the auto responder that I set up for them stating that they are unable to check and read e-mails.
Slowbra01
05-21-2009, 01:33 PM
Well, after putting it off for a looooooooooong time. I finally took home the rem700 after the dick and asshole at guntech hid my gun at different place in the building from my usual "snooping/sniping" areas. Made me think i had to go on a 4month waiting period lol.
I picked up the rem700, 40 rounds of fed gold match, 80 rounds of prvi partisan match, and the polish tantal i've been waiting on! Yesterday was a GREAT day!
Badger ord 20moa base is sitting there waiting. Scope and rings waiting to be ordered. Rings depending on the scope. Rich said Leupold was good enough. But i think i'll whore myself to get the extra $$$ for the badger rings as well.
Any how to's on adjusting the trigger. would like to make it lighter. Should this be something i should attempt myself?
Slowbra01
05-21-2009, 01:34 PM
boob
I must have redone a half dozen triggers because someone felt they could accomplish it themselves and wound up with completely "f'd" up triggers. Honestly, it is not hard, but you have to be methodical in making minute changes to the set screw(s) and testing it with not just a scale, but with multiple function tests as well. There are basicaly three set screws of which you shouldn't mess with 2 of them at all unless the factory smith had a really bad day at work. The set screws are sealed at the factory and you have to remove the gunk sealing them. I'm not sure what Rich charges, but it shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes tops.
GT03235
01-01-2010, 02:26 PM
good choice with the remington 700 i love mine to bits. Its putting multiple rnds down range at 150 yrds and 1.5" groupings
...........Badger ord 20moa base is sitting there waiting. .......
Wait a minute...... Mystery solved! LOL!
Slowbra01
01-02-2010, 09:25 PM
this thread has just reminded me that I still need t finish up that rifle lol. this now gets moved up in qeu
ProfessorStoneFace
02-24-2010, 09:27 PM
I must have redone a half dozen triggers because someone felt they could accomplish it themselves and wound up with completely "f'd" up triggers. Honestly, it is not hard, but you have to be methodical in making minute changes to the set screw(s) and testing it with not just a scale, but with multiple function tests as well. There are basicaly three set screws of which you shouldn't mess with 2 of them at all unless the factory smith had a really bad day at work. The set screws are sealed at the factory and you have to remove the gunk sealing them. I'm not sure what Rich charges, but it shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes tops.
yeah, go too crazy and the bolt action won't reset the firing pin :D or you end up with a 1 pound trigger pull, that's not safe either :D